rigelkitty: Another "conspiracy theory" bites the dust

Rigel (

rigelkitty) wrote,
@ 2008-04-11 00:38:00

Another "conspiracy theory" bites the dust

At 8pm, this was the top story on Yahoo. It's since slipped into More Stories. I wouldn't be surprised if it's buried even further by tomorrow, overshadowed by the latest sensational SWF murder, before it has the chance to be read over breakfast by the citizenry. I didn't see it in any prominent locations at any other mainstream media outlet.

Cheney, others OK'd harsh interrogations [read: torture]

Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned...

A former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the meetings described them Thursday to the AP to confirm details first reported by ABC News on Wednesday...

The meetings were held in the White House Situation Room in the years immediately following the Sept. 11 attacks. Attending the sessions were Cheney, then-Bush aides Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice...

The former intelligence official described Cheney and the top national security officials as deeply immersed in developing the CIA's interrogation program during months of discussions over which methods should be used and when.

At times, CIA officers would demonstrate some of the tactics, or at least detail how they worked, to make sure the small group of "principals" fully understood what the al-Qaida detainees would undergo. The principals eventually authorized physical abuse such as slaps and pushes, sleep deprivation, or waterboarding.

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Torture Principals Committee

ankhorite
2008-04-11 04:48 am UTC (link)

If it's any comfort, MSNBC hit this story hard tonight, with both Keith Olbermann and Dan Abrams featuring it on their shows at 8 and 9 pm, respectively. Olbermann replays at 10 pm in our market.

I cannot believe that they were stupid enough to have these meetings. There is now no "plausible deniability" for them.

And I cannot believe that John Ashcroft, whom I loathe, is the only one in the room who raised a question about it.

But on a larger scale, I don't want to believe that even these revolting specimens of our species were vicious enough to sit around deciding which detainee should be subjected to which tortures.

This is sickness beyond anything the scriptwriters at "24" have enshrined in our culture. It will be compared to the Wannsee Conference - not in scale, of course, but in the complete lack of humanity demonstrated the people sitting around the table.

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Re: Torture Principals Committee

rabitguy
2008-04-11 05:29 pm UTC (link)

And I cannot believe that John Ashcroft, whom I loathe, is the only one in the room who raised a question about it.

Aschroft is quite a loon but I think he's much more rational than people give him credit for. It was Monica Goodling, not Ashcroft, who ordered the spending of $8,000 to cover a naked statue inside the Justice Department. Also, it's pretty clear from the way Gonzalez and Card rushed right over to the hospital with papers to sign approving torture the very moment Ashcroft fell seriously ill. Of course, after Ashcroft resigned and was replaced by Gonzalez, it was full speed ahead for torture.

...but in the complete lack of humanity demonstrated the people sitting around the table.

Guilt makes people act irrationally. I've long felt that to really understand the Bush administration, you need to look at what occured before 9/11, which was that there were many people in the FBI and CIA that strongly felt terrorist activity was occuring in the US. Ashcroft himself abruptly stopped flying on passenger planes. The administration continued to undercut anti-terrorism programs, turning down a request for an $814 million increase several months before 9/11.

So instead of giving anyone the opportunity to blame them for their sheer incompetence in preventing what the worst terrorist attack in US history, they changed the subject to war.

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Re: Torture Principals Committee

ankhorite
2008-04-11 05:42 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I was thinking of that hospital episode also being to his credit. Thanks for filling me in on the Goodling initiative re the moronic modesty drapes. One more reason to despise her, and boy, wouldn't I like to see her in jail for some of her partisan manipulation of the civil service system. An empty hope, but I can't help myself.

When John Ashcroft is the best person in the room, it's a Really Bad Room.

Pfft, they've been intentionally incompetent at everything, destroying government so they can point to it and say, "See? It doesn't work!" as if that weren't an inevitable consequence of their sabotage.

The Iraq (and soon, Iran) war(s) is/are exactly what I expected from two oil barons in the White House.

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baphnedia
2008-04-11 12:33 pm UTC (link)

"The principals eventually authorized physical abuse such as slaps and pushes, sleep deprivation, or waterboarding."

If only the writer had used 'and'. Sadly, I think the article is written with speculative slant. Looking at it with a literary eye, this sentence tells me that the writer does not know (from any source of information) what they authorized or not.

I'm not suggesting that they didn't authorize water boarding, and not granting detainees basic human rights (beyond holding them for what... almost 7 years now)? I mean c'mon, this is right up there with the concentration camps in WWII (the US and Nazi concentration camps).

What's best is the legacy of an abused armed forces fighting a needless war (of profit), while the government rewards those who rob the people (the $200B bailout for banks that get to keep all the foreclosed homes), the Cheney-OPEC meetings in spring of 2001 deciding to take Iraq's oil.

The US (and it's power-grabbing affiliates) are going to have a whole lot to pay for, and it won't be the power-grabbers paying for it. It'll be it's citizens, after the rest of the world says 'enough' and trashes our military and our country (be that as it may, could be 50 years from now, or it could be five months...).

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dv_girl
2008-04-11 09:57 pm UTC (link)

I think you are mistaken in your assumption. Abusers like punishments that don't leave a mark. Waterboarding is awesome from their POV. Its their word against that of 'a terrorist' There's no lasting mark it makes. No proof it happened. It's the perfect form of torture. You can be almost certain they knew about it and knew it and thought it was fantastic.

Consider for a moment. Which of the other forms of torture would need to be demonstrated to a room full of people. Slaps, pushes, and sleep deprivation are pretty obvious what they are. Waterboarding... Not so much.

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	baphnedia 2008-04-12 10:23 am UTC (link)
	(reply cut)... For some reason, I started describing other methods of torture that might be considered, that don't work as well (for not leaving a mark). The marks of waterboarding should be able to be found in the psyche. Demonstrations of waterboarding and many other types would be needed. (Reply to this)(Parent)

rigelkitty
2008-04-11 10:05 pm UTC (link)

I believe the writer was just listing examples of abuse and torture that were authorized, simply separating them with "or" to indicate tactics authorized on different occasions rather than all at once, instead of indicating a lack of information.

This is supported by the following paragraph from the beginning of the article:

The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.

Edited at 2008-04-11 10:07 pm UTC

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	baphnedia 2008-04-12 10:16 am UTC (link)
	Indeed - I might've missed the point thar. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

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